Blokart Batten Rule Debate
Hi everyone,
I thought I would try out the poll feature in Mailspaces.
I am not sure how it works exactly so my apologies if it results in lots of emails.
To kick off – a poll on the Batten Rule...
My Thoughts on this lively & interesting debate.
1) While the sails are computer cut there will be manufacturing tolerances in the sail and battens. If you know what your doing or wish to experiment why not be allowed to sand down battens for a better shape? If you don't know – ask – I am sure someone here will help.
2) The important thing is the shape of the sail – does this matter how it is achieved?
On 1 Design I am all for it however...
There is nothing on the Blokart Battens to identify them as of Blokart manufacture. This is something Russell has pointed out – with his windsurf shop ones you can't tell the difference. So where parts are not identifiable or are of a custom design for a Blokart I think any similar replacement should be OK. This would include tires, tubes, bearings, pulleys, cleats, ropes, battens. Parts you would have to buy from Blokart would be: Pulley whips, wheels, stub axles, front forks, keels, cranes and mast sections.
I believe the tricky part is writing clear rules everyone understands that will allow some room for individuality. There is a lot of skill in sailing a Blokart around a course quickly. Do we also want to include some skill in setting up a kart to be as quick as possible for your sailing style, weight & wind conditions? Else you end up with in the situation where all competitors hire standard karts that are drawn for each race, and everyone is weighted to the same weight – then it is simply sailing ability.
I am running Standard Blokart Battens & I managed to beat Haydn in a race. I also have no problems with Ross running carbon fiber battens. I haven't tried different battens yet since I don't want to change too much and not understand the effects of the change or have two changes cancel out. No prizes for guessing what I am voting for!
Nicholas
(ABC)
Attached poll: Batterns - what should be allowed?
| Standard Blokart Only - no modifications. | |||
| 0 votes |
|
||
| Blokart Batterns Only - allowed to modify (sand / shave to change shape). | |||
| 2 votes |
|
||
| Anything goes as long as it has similar plastic endcaps. | |||
| 5 votes |
|
||
Total: 7 votes. Poll closed at 01:10 on Wednesday, 20 December 2006.
Well I just tried to vote and the poll works... But it wouldn't let me vote more than once.
I only noticed after clicking around 50 times though!
Interestingly I don't use carbon battens now that I had to shave a set of blokart battens for the NZOpen this year, Not because I think that blokart battens are better, but because they are the same and I am too lazy to change them over.
I point of clarification on the carbon battens though.. It seems that some see them (and other things I do on my kart) as against the spirit of blokarting as it has given the impression of the "deepest pockets"
This is not the case. My battens cost me nothing as I am in the yacht building industry. I would not have done them if they were more expensive than other battens.
As for some of Nicks comments, The latest revision of the equipment rules which is before the international committee I believe is quite well spelt out in terms of what can be done and what cant.
"So where parts are not identifiable or are of a custom design for a Blokart I think any similar replacement should be OK"... Well we cant do that otherwise front forks, keel bars, stub axles & pulley whips (all custom blokart parts with no identifier on it) all of which I could have made at material cost and only Paul and the blokart boys could tell the difference (if at all)
Despite what some may think, I actually believe that ALL parts should be blokart parts. Tyres, Bearings, battens the whole lot. But I do have the reservation of it turning into other complete one design sports where the suppliers take advantage of the monopoly situation. Thanks to Blokart for so far keeping price realistic.
I think the bigger issue of blokarting at the moment is, and should be, the sailing rules rather than the equipment rules.
Ross.
On 19/12/06 7:09 PM, "Nick ABC" <(Address removed)> wrote:
Hi everyone,
I thought I would try out the poll feature in Mailspaces.
I am not sure how it works exactly so my apologies if it results in lots
of emails.To kick off – a poll on the Batten Rule...
My Thoughts on this lively & interesting debate.
1) While the sails are computer cut there will be manufacturing
tolerances in the sail and battens. If you know what your doing or wish
to experiment why not be allowed to sand down battens for a better
shape? If you don't know – ask – I am sure someone here will help.
2) The important thing is the shape of the sail – does this matter how
it is achieved?On 1 Design I am all for it however...
There is nothing on the Blokart Battens to identify them as of Blokart
manufacture. This is something Russell has pointed out – with his
windsurf shop ones you can't tell the difference. So where parts are not
identifiable or are of a custom design for a Blokart I think any similar
replacement should be OK. This would include tires, tubes, bearings,
pulleys, cleats, ropes, battens. Parts you would have to buy from
Blokart would be: Pulley whips, wheels, stub axles, front forks, keels,
cranes and mast sections.I believe the tricky part is writing clear rules everyone understands
that will allow some room for individuality. There is a lot of skill in
sailing a Blokart around a course quickly. Do we also want to include
some skill in setting up a kart to be as quick as possible for your
sailing style, weight & wind conditions? Else you end up with in the
situation where all competitors hire standard karts that are drawn for
each race, and everyone is weighted to the same weight – then it is
simply sailing ability.I am running Standard Blokart Battens & I managed to beat Haydn in a
race. I also have no problems with Ross running carbon fiber battens. I
haven't tried different battens yet since I don't want to change too
much and not understand the effects of the change or have two changes
cancel out. No prizes for guessing what I am voting for!Nicholas
(ABC)
Poll: Batterns – what should be allowed?
* Standard Blokart Only – no modifications.
* Blokart Batterns Only – allowed to modify (sand / shave to change
shape).
* Anything goes as long as it has similar plastic endcaps.
Poll closes at 20 December 2006 01:09.
View poll results at
http://www.mailspaces.com/spaces/blokart/discussion/polls/471936.www.mailspaces.com – Making communities, smarter
The poll "Batterns – what should be allowed?" has been closed. The results are:
Standard Blokart Only – no modifications.: 0 votes
Blokart Batterns Only – allowed to modify (sand / shave to change shape).: 2 votes
Anything goes as long as it has similar plastic endcaps.: 5 votes
The total number of votes cast was 7.
Man! that was fast! The batten poll was open, voted on, voting closed and counted before I even read the opening message. As the world turns I guess. Anyway, I would have voted for #3 any batten modified as you please.
Cheers,
MM
Hi everyone,
well I didn't increase the time to run on this un-scientific poll from the standard 6 hours...my apologies to the international guys who probably slept though it and I hope Ross didn't get OOS from trying to vote to many times before he realized that it only counts you once!
"So where parts are not identifiable or are of a custom design for a Blokart I think any similar replacement should be OK"...
Oops sorry got that wrong should have been..
"So where parts are not identifiable or are NOT of a custom design for a Blokart I think any similar replacement should be OK"...
or even better
"So where parts are not identifiable or are generic I think any similar replacement should be OK"...
So I agree with Ross's comment that front forks, keel bars, stub axles & pulley whips (all custom blokart parts with no identifier on it) need to be supplied by Blokart.
Also for those that don't know me I am the secretary of the Auckland Blokart Club and the BAI. For the record the opinions expressed in the poll posting were my own and I am looking forward to seeing the rules that the International committee develop.
Nicholas
Nick ABC <(Address removed)> said:
The poll "Batterns – what should be allowed?" has been closed. The
results are:Standard Blokart Only – no modifications.: 0 votes
Blokart Batterns Only – allowed to modify (sand / shave to change
shape).: 2 votes
Anything goes as long as it has similar plastic endcaps.: 5 votesThe total number of votes cast was 7.
From: (Address removed) [mailto:(Address removed)]
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 9:11 AM
To: (Address removed)
Subject: Re: [blokart] Poll Results for "Batterns - what should be allowed?"
Hi Mike
A few teething issues regarding polls - but we’ve received almost as many emails as votes now as votes. Perhaps we should set up the questions again, and have a longer period for responses?
That is if we can agree the workdng. So give us your feedback as we’re trying to get an international consensus - and discussion in an open forum like this is a great way to make sure we get all the ideas on the table, so that then each country can form an opinion that will count towards reaching an international agreement.
So please take Nick’s poll as informal – just testing.
There are a few other issues that might lend them to being included in any future poll:
- N:1 downhauls
- Bearings with or without seals, or being shaved
- Foam padded strain bars (comfort, not speed, and it’s not just the SFBs)
- And one for you Mike – shaved blokart tryres – or shall we set max/min dimensions, which the international group prefers
As an occasional Laser sailor (my wife Sue has one) I can see some parallels there. But I get some satisfaction winning with a 20 year old laser against the new boats and really serious sailors! What makes the difference their is a decent sail – and extra time reading the sail in a blokart has helped immensely. So why doesn’t Hatdn have tell-tails (coz he’s past that).
Cheers
Grant
From:(Address removed) [mailto:(Address removed)]
Sent: Wednesday, 20 December 2006 9:11 a.m.
To: (Address removed)
Subject: Re: [blokart] Poll Results for "Batterns - what should be allowed?"
Man! that was fast! The batten poll was open, voted on, voting closed and counted before I even read the opening message. As the world turns I guess. Anyway, I would have voted for #3 any batten modified as you please.
Cheers,
MM
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Poll Results for "Batterns - what should be allowed?"
Nick ABC
www.mailspaces.com – Making communities, smarter
Informal polls – I would think a minimum of 24 hours (maybe a little longer) for a full round the globe cycle would give everyone a quick shot at getting in.
Hayden doesn't need tell tales as he is about a half kilo from the entry level of his weight class. Even in Lasers "Light – is right" Interesting in the middlewight performance class at the NZ Open, the top three finishers, had three of the lightest pilots in the weight class on board.
I'm guessing Hayden was about 155 lbs or 70.45 K. I know Sean was about 162 lbs. or 73.6 K. good for third place. So if the second place pilot came in between (Hayden) 70.5 K and (Sean) 73.6 K. That would match the top three finishers in order with body weight lightest to heaviest. Hmmm . . . Pretty strong arguement for being the lightest in your weight class.
Food for thought,
MM
----- Original Message -----From: (Address removed)Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 2:53 PMSubject: Re: [blokart] Poll Results for "Batterns - what should be allowed?"
Hi Mike
There is a proposal that sand bags be added (like horse racing) to weight every one up to the same class. Then where are they put (as this affects performance). I speak from personal experience – I managed to beat Haydn for the speed record (we were previously 1=) at Bruce Pulman Park. Then I found he’d had all his tools, spare tyres etc in the front of his kart to prevent lift off. That time weight ruled.
I also hear of sailors wearing weight belts. Never heard of that in Lasers, but I’ve thought about it for Blokarts.
And then there are those that weigh in and then loose weight (you want the recipe – but I reckon you probably know that one, but won’t pay the price). Do we start weighing people every race?
I think you’ll find the reverse of the weight theory in heavy winds, and then there is when to change from 4 to 3m sail. Again there is a wind range where who is fastest changes. I just love the heavy winds. So there is a lot of luck, and skill knowing which sail to use, and what to do with the battens tension, etc. If it weren’t for a few variables, we wouldn’t need to race.
How about putting liners inside the tyres and inflating the tubes to 100 psi – that helps too it the light wind (did it on my bike as I got too may blowouts!) Where does it stop?
Too much food for thought – is it fattening too?
Cheers
Grant
From:(Address removed) [mailto:(Address removed)]
Sent: Wednesday, 20 December 2006 2:53 p.m.
To: (Address removed)
Subject: Re: [blokart] Poll Results for "Batterns - what should be allowed?"
Informal polls – I would think a minimum of 24 hours (maybe a little longer) for a full round the globe cycle would give everyone a quick shot at getting in.
Hayden doesn't need tell tales as he is about a half kilo from the entry level of his weight class. Even in Lasers "Light – is right" Interesting in the middlewight performance class at the NZ Open, the top three finishers, had three of the lightest pilots in the weight class on board.
I'm guessing Hayden was about 155 lbs or 70.45 K. I know Sean was about 162 lbs. or 73.6 K. good for third place. So if the second place pilot came in between (Hayden) 70.5 K and (Sean) 73.6 K. That would match the top three finishers in order with body weight lightest to heaviest. Hmmm . . . Pretty strong arguement for being the lightest in your weight class.
Food for thought,
MM
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RE: Poll Results for "Batterns - what should be allowed?"
El Zorro
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Now that let the cat out of the bag!
Grant
From: Tga Tourist Park [mailto:(Address removed)]
Sent: Wednesday, 20 December 2006 4:09 p.m.
To: (Address removed)
Subject: Re: [blokart] Poll Results for "Batterns - what should be allowed?"
Sorry Mike,
I disagree,Those that went to Perth for Pacrim were given a real lesson among the middleweights by that man they call Bugs.Racing an older kart with one of the original sails ever made, showed us,like young Hayden, what good sailors can do.Bugs would be middle to high on the weight scale for middleweights,and in races he would do voluntary 360s and still blizs the field.His comments on battens,telltales ect, played little in his workshop discussions on sailing with the Blokarters there.Reading what is happening ahead with wind shifts,being smooth in tacks,keeping rolling speed up are more important to him.It just showed me that all the fancy bits I have, wont make any dent in a good sailor.
Ross M (BOP)
----- Original Message -----
From: (Address removed)
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: [blokart] Poll Results for "Batterns - what should be allowed?"
Informal polls – I would think a minimum of 24 hours (maybe a little longer) for a full round the globe cycle would give everyone a quick shot at getting in.
Hayden doesn't need tell tales as he is about a half kilo from the entry level of his weight class. Even in Lasers "Light – is right" Interesting in the middlewight performance class at the NZ Open, the top three finishers, had three of the lightest pilots in the weight class on board.
I'm guessing Hayden was about 155 lbs or 70.45 K. I know Sean was about 162 lbs. or 73.6 K. good for third place. So if the second place pilot came in between (Hayden) 70.5 K and (Sean) 73.6 K. That would match the top three finishers in order with body weight lightest to heaviest. Hmmm . . . Pretty strong arguement for being the lightest in your weight class.Food for thought,
MM
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RE: Poll Results for "Batterns - what should be allowed?"
El ZorroVirtual tags
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Mr Blokart America
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Hi Mike
I weighed in at over 73kg at the NZ Open which ruins your weight theory somewhat. I don't think a 5–10kg weight difference makes a blind bit of difference between pilots. People like John Nicholson and Russell race in the over 85 kg class and they are still consistantly faster than most of the light weight racers, even in light winds.
Haydn
Mr Blokart America <(Address removed)> said:
Informal polls – I would think a minimum of 24 hours (maybe a little
longer)
for a full round the globe cycle would give everyone a quick shot at
getting
in.Hayden doesn't need tell tales as he is about a half kilo from the entry
level of his weight class. Even in Lasers "Light – is right"
Interesting in the
middlewight performance class at the NZ Open, the top three finishers,
had
three of the lightest pilots in the weight class on board.
I'm guessing Hayden was about 155 lbs or 70.45 K. I know Sean was about
162
lbs. or 73.6 K. good for third place. So if the second place pilot came
in
between (Hayden) 70.5 K and (Sean) 73.6 K. That would match the top
three
finishers in order with body weight lightest to heaviest. Hmmm . . .
Pretty strong
arguement for being the lightest in your weight class.Food for thought,
MM
Hi Mike,
I think i have to agree with Haydn… Last year in the NZ-open me (75 kg) and another heavy weight NZL guy (can’t remember his name) set the fastest speeds around the track (over 30 km/h) in very light winds! Remember you performance in the UK. You where fast and heavy weight. I only succeeded to beat you once and then it was blowing like… Ok you broke your steering but I was in front J.
Nico from Belgium
Van:Haydn Ingall [mailto:(Address removed)]
Verzonden: woensdag 20 december 2006 6:56
Aan: BLOKART-NZ
Onderwerp: Re: [blokart] Poll Results for "Batterns - what should be allowed?"
Hi Mike
I weighed in at over 73kg at the NZ Open which ruins your weight theory somewhat. I don't think a 5–10kg weight difference makes a blind bit of difference between pilots. People like John Nicholson and Russell race in the over 85 kg class and they are still consistantly faster than most of the light weight racers, even in light winds.
Haydn
Mr Blokart America <(Address removed)> said:
Informal polls – I would think a minimum of 24 hours (maybe a little
longer)
for a full round the globe cycle would give everyone a quick shot at
getting
in.Hayden doesn't need tell tales as he is about a half kilo from the entry
level of his weight class. Even in Lasers "Light – is right"
Interesting in the
middlewight performance class at the NZ Open, the top three finishers,
had
three of the lightest pilots in the weight class on board.
I'm guessing Hayden was about 155 lbs or 70.45 K. I know Sean was about
162
lbs. or 73.6 K. good for third place. So if the second place pilot came
in
between (Hayden) 70.5 K and (Sean) 73.6 K. That would match the top
three
finishers in order with body weight lightest to heaviest. Hmmm . . .
Pretty strong
arguement for being the lightest in your weight class.Food for thought,
MM
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· Re: Poll Results for "Batterns - what should be allowed?"
Mr Blokart America
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Hmmm . . . never had a physics class so you guys got me there. But it is difficult to think of ANY craft, that is NOT sensitive to increased or decreased weight. So if a blokart is NOT weight sensitive, I for one would like to find out what magic formula PB has designed into it so that weight is not a factor. Because I would really like to use the idea to improve the fuel usage in my car by making weight a non-issue.
MM
Hi Mike,
Just like blokarting – pump up the tyres, make sure the alignment is correct, tighten up the suspension, make sure the bearings are in good order, avoid bits on the car which create windage and drive smoothly – you’ll save lots of gas
Rgds
Bruce
From:(Address removed) [mailto:(Address removed)]
Sent: Thursday, 21 December 2006 10:50
To: (Address removed)
Subject: Re: [blokart] Poll Results for "Batterns - what should be allowed?"
Hmmm . . . never had a physics class so you guys got me there. But it is difficult to think of ANY craft, that is NOT sensitive to increased or decreased weight. So if a blokart is NOT weight sensitive, I for one would like to find out what magic formula PB has designed into it so that weight is not a factor. Because I would really like to use the idea to improve the fuel usage in my car by making weight a non-issue.
MM
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RE: Poll Results for "Batterns - what should be allowed?"
Blokart User
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Bruce,
Rats! I so enjoyed driving while sticking my head out the window for a bit of fresh air!
MM
Mike,
Yeah – I saw you do something similar in a Kart recently – skid marks are still there at BPP!!
Happy Yuletide!
Bruce
From:(Address removed) [mailto:(Address removed)]
Sent: Thursday, 21 December 2006 13:35
To: (Address removed)
Subject: Re: [blokart] Poll Results for "Batterns - what should be allowed?"
Bruce,
Rats! I so enjoyed driving while sticking my head out the window for a bit of fresh air!
MM
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Bruce Hot Dog Hales
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